The Senator representing Rivers South-East senatorial district in the National Assembly and River State governorship aspirant Senator Magnus Abe has said that he will never return to the opposition Peoples Democratic Party, PDP.
Abe spoke on his ambition and other partisan issues on a live Television Continental Programme, Platfrom, anchored by The Nation Editorial Board Chairman, Sam Omatseye. Excerpts:
Anytime I read the headlines and follow the events in Rivers State, the thing that comes to my mind is Senator Magnus Abe was in a near-death situation at one time when Rotimi Amaechi was governor. And I had to call the governor and say ‘how is he?’ And he said, they’ve flown him. Was it not to Germany or something like that?
To London.
And he told me they had flown him to London. When I think of what happened and what happens now, I always wonder, what happened?
Well, first of all, thank you for having me on this show. And then thank you for the interest you’ve always shown in Rivers State and in things that affect this country generally. You’re right, the minister has not just been a friend. We’ve been like brothers all through our careers. The truth if the matter is that we have a disagreement and that disagreement essentially is about politics, basically. But, unfortunately, there is a level you get to and when you have this kind of differences, it plays out in the public. So, it’s not been handled the way we could have handled it, but essentially what it is that we do have a disagreement.
The disagreement is based on his ambition and your ambition.
Not really. I don’t see it that way. I think from what I’m able to understand because like I tell people the crisis we have in the APC in Rivers State is totally unnecessary and it’s uncalled for. And in my humble opinion, it’s not been properly handled. I don’t see the minister as having an ‘ambition’ in the context of the politics of Rivers State because constitutionally…
No, he has an interest
Yes, he has an interest. Constitutionally, he is barred and banned from seeking office in Rivers State, at least the elective office of the governor which is what I am interested in. He is constitutionally barred from seeking that. I look at it that his responsibility would have been more of trying to provide an atmosphere in which all of us including those he is interested in and those of us that he does not want can participate together. And then, in the course of that participation, of course, his preferences can play out. But what I don’t understand is why people are so bent on locking me out of the process. I think that is what is at the root of whatever issues that have played out in the public.
Now, you want to be governor. Why does Amaechi not want you to be governor? I understand in the first place that, in 2015, there seemed to be an agreement at that time between you and Dakuku Peterside and that anybody who was picked, the other would support. How did that play out and why is it different now?
Well, what played out in 2015 was that the governor then who is now the minster now was the leader, did invite the two of us. And he told us that he has narrowed it down to myself and Dr. Peterside and that at the end of the day, he wants us to agree that whoever he picks, the other person would support. And we agreed. The way it played out at the time was that he didn’t make the choice immediately. We kept having meetings. He said, ‘okay, I’ll tell you people next week,’ and then we’d all turn up. And then, he’ll say, ‘okay, come next week.’ So, when things happen like that, naturally, people just took sides. Some people would say, okay, I will prefer Senator Abe. Some people would say, okay, I’ll prefer Dr. Peterside. And when finally, he made his decision. It played out that way.
How did he make the decision. On what basis?
Well, he didn’t explain his reasons but he did call us and said he has prayed to God and he has consulted and he has reached a decision that he is going to give to Peterside and that I should go back to the Senate. And that’s what we did.
You were at peace with it at that time
Yes, I was. I did my best. We all did our best in the circumstances. A lot of people were disappointed, some people balked out of it but I was able to rally the bulk of my supporters and we stayed in the party, we fought that election. The election was fraught with violence. It was difficult. And apart from that, the current governor with the support of the government of the day were determined to take over Rivers State by all means. So, they took all the result sheets. So, we fought and midway through, a decision was taken that we should pull out of the election and boycott it. We had a lot of issues and crisis and all that. And finally, Honourable Nyesom Wike, the current governor, emerged and we went to court because we had more than enough evidence of what happened. It was nationally and internationally known that the elections in Rivers State were clearly manipulated and all that. So, we went to court. We lost in the Supreme Court and the rest as you know is history. So, this time around, when the minister expressed his view that we should all wait and let’s decide the way we did the last time, I felt that that system would not work now for several reasons. One is that we have promised Nigerians and Rivers people that we were going to do things differently. And I thought that showing that we are doing things differently is an important way of generating public confidence in the process of what we’re doing. And then secondly, in the context of the politics of our state, I’m from Ogoni and this is not an important reason but it’s also something I took into consideration. In the 51 years of the existence of Rivers State, no Ogoni man has been anything in Rivers State. I mean, none of us has ever been a governor, we’ve never been a deputy governor, we have never been chief judge, we have never been Speaker. We’ve not held any of the power positions in the state. And I felt that a lot of people feel that there’s really no basis for the continued exclusion of our own people from the top of the system.
Peterside would think the same way too
No, but he is not from Ogoni.
He is not from Ogoni but he is not Ikwerre.
He is not from Ikwerre, but he is from Opobo. The last deputy governor was from Opobo for eight years. And they are much smaller than the Ogoni people. So, everybody has a right to aspire and what I am fighting for is just that right to also be free to aspire and express my own aspiration and that of other people that feel they too have something to contribute to the process and to the systems. That’s what it is.
So what you’re saying is that you were not at peace with the decision by a single person to say this is the person we want to pick the last time
Yes.
Because it didn’t favour you?
No, not because it didn’t favour me. But for three reasons and I’ve given you the three reasons. Firstly, I already know the decision would not favour me so let’s not pretend that there is any way it would favour me. Secondly, at that time he was the governor and we have all the instruments and apparatus of the government at our disposal. So, there is a fair chance that if we followed that, we could arrive at where we are going. But now, things are different, times are different. We had promised the people of the state that we are going to do things differently. And that we are leaving the PDP because the PDP refused to accept our own desire that things should be done properly and differently. So, having made these promises to Rivers people, I felt that it would not be fair to Rivers people if we don’t walk the talk, if we don’t show by example that we’re actually committed to doing things differently.
There was this story that the minister came to your house in the presence of your wife and told you ‘I don’t want you to be governor.’
Yes, it’s a fact. But I don’t want to discuss that on television because I’ve told that story privately to people severally and it’s a fact. And no matter how it is couched, I didn’t think that that was right. And I felt that ii should at least stand up for what I believe in and offer myself to Rivers people and give them that opportunity to make a decision.
Has he ever given you a reason why he doesn’t want you? Or is it that he wants you, he just wants Dakuku more?
I would think that it may have started that way but I believe that right now, he’s probably gotten to the point where it can be anybody but it can’t be you because you disobeyed me (Laughs). But he is a friend, he is a brother. It’s something that we would manage as we go along.
But, you’re not managing it at all because during the SEC meeting, you reportedly walked out
No, no, I didn’t walk out. What I complained about is that it was supposed to be a State Executive Committee meeting but they ended up inviting more people who were not members of the State Executive Committee than those who were members.
So, you thought it was not a meeting
I said it was not a State Executive Committee meeting because the State Executive Committee is defined in the party constitution. So, this can be called an expanded stakeholders meeting but it cannot be called a State Executive Committee meeting. That’s what I complained about.
Now, Dakuku Peterside was on this show last year and I asked him that time. I said, ‘what’s your relationship with Magnus Abe? He said fine
Fine, fantastic
He used the words close to fantastic. So, what’s the relationship now?
Fantastic. Dakuku is like a brother to me. We’ve been together all through the years. In fact, there is this group they have in Opobo called Vanguard of Opobo Nation. I’ve always been part of it. We attend meetings. He is like a brother to me. And he’s right. So the issues are not personal. It’s not between me and Dakuku. Between me and Dakuku, I believe that even if we have a fair contest and one person emerges over the other, we could always talk to one another. The problem is between me and the minister who doesn’t want me to participate in the process at all.
You know you’re saying the minister is coming in between friends. Is that what you’re saying?
No, I don’t think so. We’re all friends. The minister is also my friend. I’m saying that the root of the problem is that they don’t want me to even participate in the process. The whole idea of the crisis in the APC is that I should not be allowed to participate. Lock him out; in fact, he is out of the party. And the latest one that somebody was saying the other day is ‘oh, I’m working with Wike in the PDP.’ And I said that there are some things people say and you get hurt. Everybody in this country knows the sacrifices I’ve made to build the All Progressives Congress in Rivers State at least. I was one of the 11 senators that actually defied President Jonathan and dumped the PDP on the floor of the Nigerian Senate. And I have said and I want to repeat here that under no circumstance would I go back to the PDP. But when you have a crisis in a party and people who are looking for a way to malign you and get people to see you as a bad person, begin to say certain things that are more uncharitable and unfair about you when they know that it is false and completely untrue, it’s a terrible thing. Now, I was saying to people that when they had a crisis in PDP, people were saying, ‘oh, the crisis was sponsored by APC and I was with a friend of mine who is a top member of the PDP and he was telling me, ‘you people are sponsoring the crisis in PDP.’ And I said to him, ‘I didn’t know that Wike and Fayose were working for APC.’ He said, ‘what do I mean?’ I said, ‘it is known in this country that it was Wike and Fayose who went to Maiduguri and invited Sheriff to come and be chairman of PDP. Now, if APC sent Wike and Fayose to invite Sheriff, then, they caused the crisis. Now, the other stakeholders in the PDP, Makarfi, Mark, all of them, rejected that decision and opposed it up till the convention in Port Harcourt which generated the crisis and the court case. So, are you saying that APC now got these stakeholders to reject that decision. So, we have a problem in the APC. The minister came since last year, removed everybody, you’re no longer the leader here, I’m no longer the leader, even in my ward in the APC. And then people reacted. You have not said that Wike sent the minister to remove us but people who are reacting, you say Wike sent them. Now, we had a congress. People bought tellers to pay money to the party to participate in the congress. The congress was taken to a hotel and all these people were locked out. They were not even given an opportunity to participate and they reacted. And you say Wike sponsored them. Why don’t you say Wike sponsored the people who locked them out of the process because if they didn’t lock them out of the process, there will be no reaction. And everybody knows that if I have said I am running for the governorship ticket of my party. And I am running. I’m serious about it. Now, if you’re holding a congress of that magnitude and I’m a senator in the party, I’m a gubernatorial aspirant in the party and I’m totally locked out of the process, you that you’re taking the decision, you know that I must react. And my reaction must of course generate situations in the party. So, did Wike send you to take that decision so as to create crisis in the APC? If Wike did not send you to take the decision, why would you then say that Wike sent me to say the decision is wrong and I will not accept it? I mean, you look at it yourself.
Now, you’ve said the congresses were not legal, were not properly done. What were the things specifically other than the fact that they locked them in? What were the other things? I know you mentioned something that on that very day, people started picking forms or something like that?
Well, let me explain how this whole process went. There was a first congress held on the fifth, the ward congress, which the guidelines were clear. People were to be given forms. We held a meeting, they said the forms were there, everybody will be given forms. But as soon as the minister landed in Port Harcourt, all that changed. People didn’t get the forms. Nobody was talking to anybody again. The people who were to organise the congress, one Dogo, or somebody from Kaduna, obviously with a tight relationship to the system that be, came in and when people asked when would the congress committee address us so that we know what is happening, they said ‘no,’ that everybody should go to their wards, they are not talking to anybody. Where are the forms? There is no form. Where are the result sheets? There are no result sheets. So, before we knew it, everybody had gone to intels and locked up the party place. Now, that congress, they went ahead to conduct it. There was crisis everywhere as you would imagine. And people now rushed to court, got an order from the court to stop the congresses. They went on air to announce that they would not obey the order and went ahead and conducted another congress in defiance of the court order. Now, when the national now looked at it and said no, clearly there was an order, ‘don’t accept that result,’ what they did was on Friday, they now announced Friday night, published on Saturday morning that there would be new ward congresses on Saturday at 10 am, there would now be local government congresses on Sunday at 1pm, there would now be state congress on Monday. Now, the party guidelines provide at least 24 hour notice for each of these congresses for you to fill forms and all that. All that was thrown out. Nobody was aware, nobody knew that there was going to be congress. By Monday morning, they had announced the conclusion of the entire exercise. Of course, people went back to the court. And the court gave another order, voiding that second congress which they have held. So, clearly, there is a determined attempt to ensure that party members who are seen as ‘not loyal’ would not be allowed to be part of the party. That is the objective of what is going on in Rivers State right now.
I want to ask you this question. Would you characterise Rotimi Amaechi as your leader today?
I have never quarrelled with him over leadership. Me, I want to be governorship candidate of the party. I want to be governor of Rivers State. He’s the leader. Those are two separate functions.
You mean the leader has gone astray
I mean the leader is not being just and he is not being fair. You know, the condition for peace in any situation is justice. Without justice there can be no peace.
Why would you call him your leader if you feel he is not just? If he is your leader, then he is your leader
Then he should be just. He should be fair.
You’re trying to make him to be just.
We will fight for what is right. Anybody can lead as long as you lead in such a manner that people would have confidence in what you’re doing, people know that everybody’s interest can be protected and that you will be the one to protect everybody’s interest. That’s how a leader would carry everybody along. But where a leader shows so much preference that every time you do something, people know that what you’re doing is targeted against a certain group or a certain interest, then, there is no justice there. And it makes things very difficult.
It looks like the battle is actually a very tough one because you also have the NWC to contend with
The NWC of the party, I believe that if they want to do the right thing, the issues of the party in Rivers State are not too complicated.
But are they working the way you want it?
No, they’re not (laughs).
They’re (NWC) like the final say in the party
Well, I believe that…
I believe they have sworn in the party chairmen and so on
Yes, but even that doesn’t make any difference because the NWC cannot override a decision of a court of competent jurisdiction, that’s one. Two is that we are all in this party. The APC is not your normal political party.
Why do you say that?
Let me explain. The APC is an idea that Nigerians can do the right thing. We all came together to say that this is a vehicle under which Nigeria will do the right thing. We brought a man whose integrity everybody accepted that this is one man that if he sees white, he would say it’s white. And if he sees black, he would say it’s black. That’s why Nigerians followed APC. So, no matter who you are, NWC ooo, Senator, Minister, you can’t be in the APC and do the wrong thing openly and visibly for Nigerians to see. People would know that you’re not acting within the spirit of the agreement that this party has with the Nigerian people. So, we are determined to fight for what is right and the only place that you can use what is right as a basis for argument today in Nigeria is the APC because nobody in APC can open his mouth on television and say ‘oh, we can do the wrong thing. It doesn’t matter.’ You can’t say that if you’re a member of this party. You must justify whatever you’re doing. You must show to Nigerians that you’re doing the right thing. You must show that you’re following the rules because that is what we promised. So, we believe that the one place where we stand a chance to see justice, to see the right thing done in this country is in the APC and that’s why we’re here.
Right now, yes. So, we need to solve some of our problems and as a Senator of the Federal Republic of Nigeria, I will still continue to carry the message of reconciliation, no matter how unpopular it is. I will continue to work to see that the numbers are asking these people to work together. That’s what Nigerians want to see. And that’s what I would work for.
